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What do you think of the CM template?
Poll ended at Sun, 11-11-07, 1:05 GMT
A crime against humanity 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Worse than the old one 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Better than the old one 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
I like it, but... 57%  57%  [ 4 ]
I love it! 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 7
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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 1:54 GMT 
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t00fri wrote:
rthorvald wrote:
t00fri wrote:
There is NO doubt that the subsilver way of placing the avatar onto the left sideframe together with other author information is simply superior


Not in a fixed-width template. In a full-screen set it is different. And we do not agree, so there is doubt...
Which is why there are several templates to choose from...

- rthorvald


Full-screen templates? Is this going back to DOS times?


The CM template is a fixed-width template as opposed to the SubSilver, which is a fullscreen one. Maybe i should have called it "elastic width".

- rthorvald


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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:01 GMT 
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rthorvald wrote:
t00fri wrote:
Indeed, I will remain with the Subsilver Shadow template. But still other users working with the new one will see my mutilated "baby face" which I do not want..


Fridger, nobody will see it in SubSilver either...

- rthorvald


You misunderstand: In my view of the role of avatars, a clean question mark is preferrable to a mutilated "baby face" that many people know in it's original form!

So also in the subsilver a clean "nothing" is better than knowing that the users of the new template will see the mutilated "baby face".

Icons must remain UNMODIFIED! This is a basic rule of the "market" ;-) . Right?
That baby face icon has already appeared in ~ 7000 forum posts in its original form...

F.


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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:07 GMT 
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t00fri wrote:
[Icons must remain UNMODIFIED! This is a basic rule of the "market" ;-) . Right?
That baby face icon has already appeared in ~ 7000 forum posts in its original form...


Ok, now we are getting somewhere, at least:
I will fix it so that no avatars will ever be cropped no matter their size if you bring back your iconic baby face!

- rthorvald


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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:08 GMT 
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rthorvald wrote:
t00fri wrote:
rthorvald wrote:
t00fri wrote:
There is NO doubt that the subsilver way of placing the avatar onto the left sideframe together with other author information is simply superior


Not in a fixed-width template. In a full-screen set it is different. And we do not agree, so there is doubt...
Which is why there are several templates to choose from...

- rthorvald


Full-screen templates? Is this going back to DOS times?


The CM template is a fixed-width template as opposed to the SubSilver, which is a fullscreen one. Maybe i should have called it "elastic width".

- rthorvald


Oh yes. That "fullscreen" interpretation I definitely misunderstood. But isn't an "elastic-width" template basically a much superior concept, able to deal with many different screens and resolutions?

F.


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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:14 GMT 
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t00fri wrote:
Oh yes. That "fullscreen" interpretation I definitely misunderstood. But isn't an "elastic-width" template basically a much superior concept, able to deal with many different screens and resolutions


For many purposes, yes. But not for formatting text; the best way to present longer texts is with predictable formatting - a comfortable max number of letters per line, max width of the line and so forth. This is not arbitrary - books, magazines and newspapers have evolved towards some standards over the centuries that is also applicable on the screen, though with some concessions regarding font faces and sizes because of poorer resolution on screen compared to paper.

- rthorvald


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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:20 GMT 
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Another point concerning avatars, specifically MY VIEW about avatars. Notably in a forum like CM where a certain amount of weight was to be put on artistic presentations, also avatars should allow people to express themselves. You can see this explicitly in many forums related to art and also in many others!

Here is a random example of avatars that people like to use and that clearly need a minimum amount of pixels! And of course, in this forum the avatars are placed like in subsilver.

F.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:33 GMT 
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Here are further examples from a proper ART forum, with different templates, but the SAME way of admitting large avatars:

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 2:53 GMT 
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t00fri wrote:
Another point concerning avatars, specifically MY VIEW about avatars. Notably in a forum like CM where a certain amount of weight was to be put on artistic presentations, also avatars should allow people to express themselves. You can see this explicitly in many forums related to art and also in many others!


But that does not change the fact that an 80 pixel indent in a 700 pixel reading space is a significant reduction of the available room for the article = a whole lot of unnecessary scrolling... To me, though your pic looks nice, it also looks badly planned. It might work for short exchanges, but not too well for presenting longer texts, complex articles (mix of text/images/difficult material etc) or texts that should be easy to scan/browse.

Your other arguments are somewhat persuasive, but the avatar shows up in full size in the User Profile and also if you fold out the header (click the avatar), so one still has the option to express any artistic intentions... And if one really wants to see these expressions all the time, one can use a different template. Soon, even a CM template!

At any rate, good formatting and readability (and of course typography) is far more important than *anything* else that has to do with text publishing.

- rthorvald


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 5:08 GMT 
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rthorvald wrote:
Get Unanswered will only show a tag if the post in question is new to you in this session.


I guess I'm confused as to the meaning of the 3 tag colors - yellow = unread, grey = read, white = ??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 13:05 GMT 
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rthorvald wrote:
t00fri wrote:
Another point concerning avatars, specifically MY VIEW about avatars. Notably in a forum like CM where a certain amount of weight was to be put on artistic presentations, also avatars should allow people to express themselves. You can see this explicitly in many forums related to art and also in many others!


But that does not change the fact that an 80 pixel indent in a 700 pixel reading space is a significant reduction of the available room for the article = a whole lot of unnecessary scrolling... To me, though your pic looks nice, it also looks badly planned.


You misunderstood again. The examples were NOT supposed to ONLY make use of a 700 pix width! My generic criticism of the new templates starts at your placement of lots of info on the right hand sideframe. That together with the proper content of the pages creates an untransparent, overfull page impression. Notably on the list of threads! One main reason, for this suboptimal impression is the lacking of an alignment of the lines on the sideframe with those in the proper text space!
The eye tends to "get lost...".
Image

As soon as the right hand side frame were gone, the way is open for placing larger avatars on a left-hand side frame as indicated in the two examples ! ;-) . That correlated set of arguments form the reason for why I wrote --already after seeing your first version of the new templates-- that I feel the changes would be too big to make me ever happy...

My two examples of bigger avatars in other (art) forums only show a SMALL part of the written text such as to fit into your 700 pix wide text window. Most available text space in other forums is significantly wider than 700 pix, due to less broad sidebar space (where the avatars reside) and an "elastic width" in the text window.

Quote:
Your other arguments are somewhat persuasive, but the avatar shows up in full size in the User Profile and also if you fold out the header (click the avatar), so one still has the option to express any artistic intentions...

Again you tend to forget that your undocumented "secret clicks" that you tend to build in at various places are only known to some insiders! Even if you will write a manual somewhere, most people will not read it and thus never know what those clicks on avatars or +'es or other secret spots effect.
Quote:
At any rate, good formatting and readability (and of course typography) is far more important than *anything* else that has to do with text publishing.

Also here I tend to disagree: In a forum the most important aspect in my view has to do with an optimally transparent subdivision of the available screen space. This does NOT happen in the new templates, at least in my view.

F.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 13:35 GMT 
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To match all my above considerations with the CM Website, one could have easily placed the sideframe of the CM Website on the left-hand side! Then the way would have been free to place larger avatars on the corresponding (left) sideframe in the CM forum.
Placing the additional unaligned text info on the left-hand side, would presumably be less disturbing to the eye as well. CF. my above example of the thread listing...

F.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 14:54 GMT 
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The menu line with available features on top of the editorial window is getting too long, being partly covered also by the right sideframe!

Moreover, after hitting "submit" some not-found (graphics?) link is flashing briefly on the following screen. It aappears at the lower right of

---------------------------------------------------------------
Your message has been entered successfully.

Click Here to view your message

Click Here to return to the forum



.................................................. XXXXX <===========here
--------------------------------------------------------------

What is this supposed to be?


F.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 15:11 GMT 
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Fridger,
we have been over this before, so i don´t understand why it comes up again several weeks later.
As i have explained earlier, the fixed-width CM template is wider than the default template on shatters (the Solaris theme) even without the right-hand menu!

Some people prefer this kind of design. For those that do not, there will be a fullscreen design (like SubSilver).

The reason i complete this one first is simply because i need the integration with the website design to work before i can take any liberties with it, or i would be working blind, so to speak.

As for any lack of alignment, that will naturally happen if you scale the font up too much. But a fullscreen version is exactly for people that prefer to do that! Why would you want to limit these options? Even if you prefer a SubSilver-style design...

And for the menu: it is the same kind of menu we use on the website. and it is not an uncommon style on the web - actually most websites use this kind of navigation, so the "paradigm shift" in navigation is obviously not anything new.

Furthermore, the menu is designed to give you navigation *everywhere*. In SubSilver, any navigation is much more context-sensitive, demanding a lot more clicking and page-loading to get around than the CM theme does.

Now, instead of re-hashing old arguments i thought we had discussed to everyone´s satisfaction before bringing out this public beta, i would really prefer to finish debugging this one so that i can concentrate on bringing the fullscreen one online - it should be more to your liking. I recall i sent you some screenshots of an early test of that version about a month ago, which you liked.

- rthorvald


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 15:28 GMT 
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rthorvald wrote:
Fridger,
we have been over this before, so i don´t understand why it comes up again several weeks later.

Because little has changed since...
Quote:
As i have explained earlier, the fixed-width CM template is wider than the default template on shatters (the Solaris theme) even without the right-hand menu!

This I don't understand. I just have to glance at shatters.net to see that the text space for posts is much wider. E.g. The folowwing text is ONE LINE at shatters.net
Quote:
Including Lua is a compile-time option. You'll have to locate a copy which was built including Lua, or

Quote:
Some people prefer this kind of design. For those that do not, there will be a fullscreen design (like SubSilver).

Please, could you tell me who (besides you)? Or could you point to some successful, concrete forum layouts in the net that incorporate your philosophy!?

Quote:
Now, instead of re-hashing old arguments i thought we had discussed to everyone´s satisfaction before bringing out this public beta,


Certainly NOT as concerns myself. I just gave up in resignation!

F.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat, 10-11-07, 16:11 GMT 
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t00fri wrote:
The menu line with available features on top of the editorial window is getting too long, being partly covered also by the right sideframe!

Well, that has been answered elsewhere, but:
1. You requested non-serif fonts for the buttons. That takes up more room.
2. I can remove buttons or abbrievate their labels
3. We can wrap the button row. Takes more room vertically
4. Remove functions...

Quote:
What is this supposed to be?

Will have a look at that.

- rthorvald


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