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PostPosted: Sat, 07-07-12, 13:43 GMT 
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t00fri wrote:
Clearly the benefits of the Higgs particle do NOT belong to the field of APPLIED science ;-) . Yet the Higgs boson plays a most fundamental double role in our celebrated Standard Model of the World:
  • On the one hand, the Higgs boson constitutes the origin of mass for all elementary particles and hence of the Universe, including our own and foreign galaxies! The underlying mechanism, called "Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking" is also well-known in many other areas of physics.
  • On the other hand, the Higgs boson causes a cancellation of unphysical infinities in the Standard Model such as to render it perfectly finite, well-defined and hence renormalizable as we say... Hence, for mathematical consistency of the Standard Model, the Higgs boson must exist! Therefore, the triumph and relief that it has actually been found should be well understandable.

As I understand it, they haven't yet confirmed a Standard Model Higgs until they firm up the properties in the next few months/years. They said in the Press conference that they had discovered a Higgs Boson, but not necessarily the Standard Model Higgs. Your ex-director was clearly emphasizing that point.
If a Standard Model Higgs is eventually confirmed, then that IS good news for the Standard Model. If however, it's properties are different then that's bad news for the Standard Model, and good news for some other model, eg Super-Symmetry.

I'm almost hoping that it IS another type of Higgs as that would raise more questions. Either way, it's good news for physics.

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PostPosted: Sat, 07-07-12, 16:04 GMT 
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chuft-captain wrote:
t00fri wrote:
Clearly the benefits of the Higgs particle do NOT belong to the field of APPLIED science ;-) . Yet the Higgs boson plays a most fundamental double role in our celebrated Standard Model of the World:
  • On the one hand, the Higgs boson constitutes the origin of mass for all elementary particles and hence of the Universe, including our own and foreign galaxies! The underlying mechanism, called "Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking" is also well-known in many other areas of physics.
  • On the other hand, the Higgs boson causes a cancellation of unphysical infinities in the Standard Model such as to render it perfectly finite, well-defined and hence renormalizable as we say... Hence, for mathematical consistency of the Standard Model, the Higgs boson must exist! Therefore, the triumph and relief that it has actually been found should be well understandable.

As I understand it, they haven't yet confirmed a Standard Model Higgs until they firm up the properties in the next few months/years. They said in the Press conference that they had discovered a Higgs Boson, but not necessarily the Standard Model Higgs. Your ex-director was clearly emphasizing that point.
If a Standard Model Higgs is eventually confirmed, then that IS good news for the Standard Model. If however, it's properties are different then that's bad news for the Standard Model, and good news for some other model, eg Super-Symmetry.


Absolutely! I was making that point further above, even before the July 4th update
t00fri wrote:
Yet, what is harder to answer .... is whether this new particle is precisely the Higgs particle of the Standard Model!

and linked specifically to that video dated July 3rd, where my old friend Prof. John Ellis, FRS, CBE discusses that important point as well:

http://youtu.be/fE_Qw_nsMU8

On the other hand, in my preceeding post, I merely answered that "practical" quesion by fenerit, that referred to a conventional Higgs boson not to any more exotic variants thereof.

Fridger


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PostPosted: Sat, 07-07-12, 16:44 GMT 
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As to understand well, in the next months/years must be confirmed that, naive speaking, is such candidate which renormalize the probability into 0-1 range about the W boson's diffusion by another W boson at high energies (gaugen theorie)?


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PostPosted: Sun, 08-07-12, 11:09 GMT 
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fenerit wrote:
As to understand well, in the next months/years must be confirmed that, naive speaking, is such candidate which renormalize the probability into 0-1 range about the W boson's diffusion by another W boson at high energies (gaugen theorie)?


I am not sure I understand your writing here.

Let me try some further explanations:
  • Theoretical physicists love symmetries! The more the better. The celebrated (local) gauge symmetries are among the most desirable ones for many reasons, including the so-called renormalizability of theories that enjoy such a local gauge symmetry. Our famous Standard Model is such a gauge theory.

    In the early days of gauge theories it seemed that the gauge symmetry only holds if the particles mediating the forces (i.e. the gauge bosons) are strictly massless! Just like the Photon, the mediator particle of the electromagnetic force.
    Since in contrast, the weak gauge bosons (W, Z) are very heavy, it originally seemed that --despite their elegance-- gauge theories would have little application in Nature beyond Electro-Magnetism.
  • But then the mechanism of Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking (SSB) entered the scene and provided the solution to that fundamental problem with mass, at the expense of requiring the existence of a hypothetical new particle, the Higgs boson!

    To understand the phenomenon of SSB one has first to note that the force law might enjoy higher symmetries than the ground state of the system (i.e. the state corresponding to the lowest energy configuration)! There are many such examples in different areas of physics.

    An intuitive and simplistic example would be a wooden stick, say, that is placed orthogonal to the ground surface. Let a 1 kg weight act on the top end of the stick. Since that force is directed along the axis of the stick, you immediately see that the force law of this system is axially symmetric.

    There are TWO distinguished candidates for the ground state of that system:

    a) the stick remains unchanged and just absorbs that axial force of 1 kg. That state still enjoys axial symmetry, of course.

    b) The stick bends according to the pressure on top. Equilibrium arises due to the wooden stick's elasticity, counteracting the force. That state is actually the stable ground state of the system and indeed has lost the full axial symmetry, due to the bending away from the original force axis!

    In case of gauge theories like the Standard Model, something very similar happens once a Higgs boson is coupled into the system. The actual ground state has apparently lost the original gauge symmetry since it acquires a calculable, non-vanishing MASS for the W and Z gauge bosons (in agreement with experiment)! Since massive W, Z bosons require more degrees of freedom than massless ones, the massive W,Z bosons emerge after some components of the Higgs boson have been "swallowed" by the originally massless W, Z gauge bosons. Amazingly, the Higgs boson also provides masses for the fermions, i.e. the quarks and leptons...That's why we say that the Higgs boson provides the key to the concept of mass in the Universe.

    Note that the fundamental force laws underlying the system still enjoy the full gauge symmetry.


Fridger


Last edited by t00fri on Mon, 09-07-12, 14:50 GMT, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun, 08-07-12, 13:33 GMT 
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Quote:
In case of gauge theories like the Standard Model, something very similar happens once a Higgs boson is coupled into the system. The actual ground state has apparently lost the original gauge symmetry since it acquires a calculable, non-vanishing MASS for the W and Z gauge bosons (in agreement with experiment)! Since massive W, Z bosons require more degrees of freedom than massless ones, the massive W,Z bosons emerge after some components of the Higgs boson have been "swallowed" by the originally massless W, Z gauge bosons.

Note that the fundamental force laws underlying the system still enjoy the full gauge symmetry.


This latter part is what I was asking for. Thanks for your explications. The media also would tell the story in such a terms, without semplicistic and sensational claims. At least to figure out to the people why after the finding of the bosons W+ and Zo the LHC was planned. This would avoid even the easy critic about the money, because such a critic is due, in my opinion, to the fact that no "historical continuum" about physicists' researches has been explained to the masses, and these latters thinks that high energies experiments are just physicists' caprices, without coherence.


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PostPosted: Sun, 08-07-12, 14:10 GMT 
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...At least to figure out to the people why after the finding of the bosons W+ and Zo the LHC was planned.


Besides the searches for the missing link of the Standard Model (Higgs), there was a lot more (and even more exciting) motivation for the LHC. The discovery of the Higgs closes the book about the Standard Model to some extent. The discovery of new physics beyond the Standard Model could bring us much further: it would open another book... Physicists are well aware that --irrespective of it's great phenomenological success -- the Standard Model could at best be part of a final theory (of everything). Hence, another main motivation for the LHC was clearly the quest for new physics beyond the Standard Model.


Fridger


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PostPosted: Mon, 09-07-12, 21:03 GMT 
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Fridger,

Do you have this: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21972-agent-higgs-game-turns-real-particle-hunt-on-its-head.html

http://www.testtubegames.com/higgs.html

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PostPosted: Tue, 10-07-12, 5:43 GMT 
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chuft-captain wrote:


no i<gadgets> available here. Over the past decades, I have "played" more than enough "puzzle games" involving the Higgs as part of my professional research ... ;-)

Fridger


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