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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 2:45 GMT 
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The point is that some parts of the formula are interpreted as HTML code as long as "Disable HTML in this post" is not activated!!! So please activate it in your editing mode under the editing window before quoting such formulae. Else they are wrongly printed.

Here is a tiny piece of the 21k full-size normal map that I generated for you to look forward to! ;-) For a better 3D impression I color-inverted the normal map, whence it looks yellowish instead of blue.

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 2:53 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:

Why won't this thing allow the full command line?


What is this statement supposed to mean?? It is the full commandline, except that the line is broken early, since the remaining part gebco_bathy.21602x10801.nm.ppm is a very long word without blanks. The full commandline must be typed always without hitting RETURN anywhere in between!!!

Quote:
gzip -dc < gebco_bathy.21601x10801.bin.gz | nms 6378.140 21602 2.7 1 > gebco_bathy.21602x10801.nm.ppm

This form is now correct.
Quote:
I had this result earlier today, but it wouldn't convert or load into anything.


Of course, since the usual image manipulation tools don't function with so little memory given such large textures. The only one that might possibly work is the GIMP.

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 3:23 GMT 
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So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?

I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.

So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 10:59 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


For anyone having enough memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools can work with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. Normally one would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

The memory aspect becomes /critical/ thereafter. The problem comes rather in the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to be able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.

What to you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normalmaps basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. A (temporary) color inversion helps for inspecting the map's 3D impression. See my example above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain vague about your project when I asked you over and over agin, you now have to proceed by yourself, obviously ;-) . If you instead had studied my tutorial beforhand you would anyhow know how to proceed.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before... Also on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time without explaining the aim of the whole exercise from the onset. This costs far too much time on my side. Sorry.

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea anyhow.

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 11:00 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


For anyone having enough memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools can work with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. Normally one would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

The memory aspect becomes /critical/ thereafter. The problem comes rather in the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to be able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.

What to you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normalmaps basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. A (temporary) color inversion helps for inspecting the map's 3D impression. See my example above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain vague about your project when I asked you over and over agin, you now have to proceed by yourself, obviously ;-) . If you instead had studied my tutorial beforhand you would anyhow know how to proceed.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before... Also on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time without explaining the aim of the whole exercise from the onset. This costs far too much time on my side. Sorry.

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea anyhow.

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 11:01 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


For anyone having enough memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools can work with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. Normally one would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

The memory aspect becomes /critical/ thereafter. The problem comes rather in the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to be able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.

What to you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normalmaps basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. A (temporary) color inversion helps for inspecting the map's 3D impression. See my example above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain vague about your project when I asked you over and over agin, you now have to proceed by yourself, obviously ;-) . If you instead had studied my tutorial beforhand you would anyhow know how to proceed.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before... Also on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time without explaining the aim of the whole exercise from the onset. This costs far too much time on my side. Sorry.

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea anyhow.

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 11:02 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


For anyone having enough memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools can work with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. Normally one would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

The memory aspect becomes /critical/ thereafter. The problem comes rather in the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to be able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.

What to you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normalmaps basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. A (temporary) color inversion helps for inspecting the map's 3D impression. See my example above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain vague about your project when I asked you over and over agin, you now have to proceed by yourself, obviously ;-) . If you instead had studied my tutorial beforhand you would anyhow know how to proceed.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before... Also on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time without explaining the aim of the whole exercise from the onset. This costs far too much time on my side. Sorry.

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea anyhow.

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 11:03 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


For anyone having enough memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools can work with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. Normally one would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

The memory aspect becomes /critical/ thereafter. The problem comes rather in the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to be able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.

What to you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normalmaps basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. A (temporary) color inversion helps for inspecting the map's 3D impression. See my example above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain vague about your project when I asked you over and over agin, you now have to proceed by yourself, obviously ;-) . If you instead had studied my tutorial beforhand you would anyhow know how to proceed.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before... Also on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time without explaining the aim of the whole exercise from the onset. This costs far too much time on my side. Sorry.

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea anyhow.

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 11:14 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


For anyone having enough memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools can work with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. In a rendering task, one normally would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG base textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

The memory aspect becomes critical in the image manipulation steps after application of my tools. Problems tend to arise during the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to also be able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect, which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.


What to you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normalmaps are basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. It is essential that you know or learn what the normal map colors mean. As a tip for visual inspection: A (temporary) color inversion helps to enhance the map's 3D impression. See my example above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain very vague about your project, when I asked you over and over agin, you now have to proceed by yourself, obviously ;-) . If you instead had studied my tutorial beforhand you would anyhow know how to proceed.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before... Also on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time without explaining the aim of the whole exercise from the onset. This costs far too much time on my side. Sorry.

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea anyhow.

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 11:26 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
So you're telling me, it was working the whole time?


Yes and NO for the following reasons:

For anyone having enough CPU memory, the task to generate a full-sized gebco normal map in an arbitrary format like PNG, JPG, DXT=DDS etc is a simple job of a few minutes at best. That's why I wrote the tools after all... My tools themselves function properly with comparably low memory, since they work on a line by line basis. I.e. the entire texture is never loaded into memory, such that machines with little RAM can nevertheless use the tools.

The only potential problem at the level of my tools is that the aspect ratio of the gebco texture is NOT exactly 2:1. Of course, I introduced that strict 2:1 requirement for the nms tool for good reasons, since many graphics cards, the hardware supported DXT=DDS format and a rendering in Celestia require that. You will have to think about this as well. In a rendering task, one normally would want to use further texture overlays that have to be precisely aligned, of course. All BMNG base textures of Earth have a strict 2:1 aspect ratio. You CANNOT overlay textures with different aspect ratios in general...

However...

The memory issue becomes critical in the typical image manipulation steps after application of my tools. Problems tend to arise during the further handling of the resulting textures, like e.g. format conversion or visual inspection of the normal map by means of other programs. Most image manipulation software wants to load the WHOLE texture into memory and thus will fail in your case. Examples are Xnview, nconvert, ImageMagic, Irfanview etc. You tried some of these before and indeed things did not work.

GIMP is most sophisticated in working with textures too large to fit into memory. It uses your harddisk as a VERY slow extension of your RAM memory. Of course this makes the performance painfully slow, since harddisk operations are VERY much slower than RAM operations. If correctly configured, Photoshop 7 and higher are said to be also able to handle larger textures than what fits into memory. Success to some extent depends on people's KnowHow in that respect, which in your case I cannot judge. I have no idea how Photoshop CS2 behaves. You will know better since you got the respective manual, I suppose.

Quote:
I opened this file in Photoshop CS2 earlier today. It was blue and skewed. Furthermore, I had other applications opened at the same time.


What did you mean with skewed? Does it look right or wrong?? Of course normal maps are basically blue and you must display it in natural size to see the structures. It is essential that you know or learn what the normal map colors mean. As a tip for visual inspection: A (temporary) color inversion helps to enhance the map's 3D impression. See my little preview image above.

Quote:
So now that I have it opened in Photoshop and just now in Gimp -- how do I use it?


Since you did prefer to remain quite vague about the final aim of your project,

Richard10 wrote:
I also never thought I'd need to answer so many questions.


you better proceed by yourself from now on. Studying my normal map tutorial should clarify the next steps, anyhow.

You mentioned the commercial VRay rendering software that I have never used before. So you will know better than I, how to use the gebco normal map with this software....

A 3D rendering of Earth without oceans by means of Celestia, would be straightforward and give excellent results. In addition Celestia offers nice possibilities to take PNG/JPG images or even to make videos of the final 3D result in high resolution. I have done that myself several times, as you can see for yourself in the shatters.net forum. However, Celestia requires a capable graphics card with a modern /bugfree/ OpenGL 2.0 driver. Again, I got no information from you about this crucial aspect of your system. So no qualified advice is possible here.

Unfortunately, on my side this project of yours tends to become too time-consuming, notably since you make me guess all the time... ;-) . Also I don't appreciate to be suspected of dishonesty in public, if I once renounce posting an obvious commandline as explicitly as you would have liked it.
richard10 wrote:
Your tools obviously do not work with this particular dataset. This can be the ONLY reason you expect me to take your word alone that they work or that it's an issue of memory.

If I am wrong, if you do have a working method, basic, trivial or obvious -- simply post it.


My actual reasons for not posting that commandline were entirely technical (a HTML issue), as you know meanwhile...

Many people have so far used my tools with great results and after studying my tutorial, were perfectly able to go on by themselves. That's the basic idea.

Good luck,

Bye Fridger

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 18:54 GMT 
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Thank you for your help Mr.

You've been quite useful in some ways.

Although your tools do in fact work and you are, I would say, somewhat expert in this field, you need to learn more about the concept of humility. Take this as constructive criticism as opposed to an attempt to denigrate. After all, wouldn't it be better for your potential users to know that if they are completely clueless they'll be treated with kid gloves as opposed to condescension?

Please accept my apology if you felt I was doubting you in public. In truth, it was coercion. I just needed to see what the correct command line would be and fortunately it was indeed obvious enough: I renedered the same formula earlier. Indeed if you read the last line of my first response in this thread you will notice I opened the PPM in Photoshop days ago without realizing its appearence was correct. I must assume you meant to continue our conversation in order to learn my motives, otherwise you missed so crucial an item of information.

In any event I did take a cursory look at your tutorials last week. I will at some point inspect them some more.

Vray is a renderer plugin for 3D graphics programs. I'm not entirely familiar with its many features so I'll check to see if these normal maps can be used without conversion. My expectation concerned deriving from Gebco.bin a detailed greyscale image, but, seeing as you've opened my eyes somewhat more to the world of normal map manipulation, perhaps I'll take a look at Celestia too.

Who knows? You might still even find it within you to give me some time saving pointers!


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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 19:21 GMT 
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richard10 wrote:
Thank you for your help Mr.
You've been quite useful in some ways.
Although your tools do in fact work and you are, I would say, somewhat expert in this field, ...


These three lines impressively summarize how you made me feel from the first day of "serving your needs":

--------------------------------------------------
like an operator in a call center... :roll:
--------------------------------------------------

And just for the records: This is an entirely free service...

Quote:
you are, I would say, somewhat expert in this field,


I doubt YOU are able to judge my expertise ;-)

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 20:03 GMT 
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:shock:
All those posts to conclude that this was the first time Richard10 saw a normal map!?... quite incredible indeed!!

Hey, Richard, next time, before entering in esoteric questions about command lines, try to ask first (if you are unable to find it by yourself) what is suppose to do the tool!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 20:19 GMT 
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Please don't forget that to most people, "normal" means average, conventional or standard. They have never before encountered its mathematical meaning (surface normal vectors) as it is used in 3D graphics. They are going to believe that software intended to manipulate normal maps is intended for use with maps of territory, not with heightmaps in order to generate shadows in realtime.

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PostPosted: Sun, 09-09-07, 20:33 GMT 
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Selden,

I don't think this is the problem here, see

Richard10 wrote:
I think I have at least a rudimentary comprehension of what a normal map is and what an elevation map is. I use normal maps, bump maps and displacement maps to create textures (static and variable) for 3D animations using high end 3D software and have done so for some time.


Bye Fridger

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